ugly spot when the board pairs..

now what?

1. Dont limp pre (Fold > Raise > Limp).

2. If you do limp pre. Raise more on the turn

3. Fold river unless villan is some retard who you think is capable of shoving bare 6 there.

he s never only flatting a set or 2 pair on turn imo..
i never fold pre.. 6x of clubs is in his range..

it s a 5$ so i really rarely fold.

+1 thumbs up Hussain & Zeb

me thinks he flopped 2p But cautious of FD?? No wait, that would mean Divimus was thinking…

Though if hes flopped aces up why would he shove on the river.. hmm.. easy case for him to have a nudey 6 but id think he had a weak ace with the three barreling Just possible hand combos for him is narrow but hes likely Polarized..

Don’t mind playing some shit but if you aren’t being made to pay for it PF (blinds) then be more selective/Aggressive..

Any stats, history or reads on the player? Impossible to say otherwise really.

I don’t mind the limp pre you’re on the button and deep. There is like 2800 when it gets to you on the turn and Divimus clearly has a hand he is loving I would make it 3k here and against some players would just shove because they are never folding two pair or better and some will even call with pair+fd etc.

lol Tzeleniz you cant have +1 hussain and zeb. im pretty sure we both said very opposite things …

normally with these hand help threads there is a multitude of people giving info..

+1’s for imo the best options in case there is quite a few replies.. i thought that would be clear to you Hussain, my apol.

im dumb. a lot of things aren’t clear to me.

limp from the small blind—ace/rag, any two suited
pairs ace and misses flush
two pair on river….

vs. aggro lagtard:
I call hoping not to see that 6 and expecting an ace, but if he’s the type to limp with that kind of hand from the small blind I know he’s just borrowing my chips. I would never give him another free flop 4sure.

vs. solid player / nit
even though I’m probably ahead:
fold

so what did he turn over?

i over push turn and if i dont i think he can have hands like K6s Q6s s also 45 and retard playing A3 or in worst case A6 62 22.
Since ur hand is so discused i like the option of overpushing turn since he cant put u 45 and he will payof alot of times.

He limped PF with A6, 66 or 22, then bet 69% @ Flop hoping to push out the flush draws, but gets 2 callers

At the turn his flush worries are over, so he bets 28% for value with his 2pr/set & reads ur raise as a steal/trap w/lesser hand Ax, pair, etc. since you limped PF

River makes his boat & since u raised on turn he’s banking that you’ll call his push

I think a fold is in order here, unless HUD, etc. says he’s a complete donk whereas he shows Ax, 6x or less

$5 Donkament? I snapcall here.. he has A6 or 63 or whatever.. nhnh ggme.
Also.. I agree with you on the dont limp pre comment huss, at least dont ever open limp is what I tell em.
But I dont really mind the button overlimp here when this deep vs randoms. You wont get someone isolated that easy anyway and suited connect. play good multiway imo.

i don’t know why there is so much analysis here. he’s got a russian sounding name, guy has 6To. i’m never folding in a >$10.

the only part of the hand i dissagree with you guys is the preflop limp; i really don’t mind it at all even though an isoraise is stronger for someone competent postflop. i’d be raising the flop so that i can get it in on the turn or get free card if i miss though.

I like what people have said here but Im not sure I agree with the “dont limp pre statement” from hussain. I think 120bb deep on the button multi way this hand is a clear limp. I think raise is just inflating the pot with 5 high and I think our hand can flop alot of potential so I don’t like a fold here either. Anyone else seem to think this should be a fold or a raise pre??

raise this pre to take control of the pot. Now, people will assume you have a stronger hand, so when you Cbet an A high flop, you can get folds if they feel you have a “big ace” in your hand.

Also, If your opponents do decide to flat you, and you flop something monsterous, it’s well disguised because nobody is going to assume you’re raising with “just 5 high” right?

I’d probably have raised pre, I’m definitely raising the flop first, 2ndly, if I do hit the turn, I’m definitely raising larger on the turn. I’m going to make players either want to shove their stack in on the turn (or be forced to call with meh hands on the river where a blank hits because they’ve already committed so much) or you’ll take the pot down there. Obv we’d like to get max value and hope players don’t fold, but I’m def not making a tiny raise. Instead of a tiny raise, I’d rather just flat and bet huge on rivers and or reship on most rivers.

I’m a fish tho, what do I know.

^{^} ur a live pro now. u cannot comment on online hands.

I find your arguements abit flakey sir, no offense. Like almost anyone with any knoledge of the game will see this as exactly what it is “a position raise”. I don’t think people will instantly assume you have ak or aces etc because people arent blind and If they see a 7 way limped pot or whatever everyone knows that everyone else knows there is alot of dead money in this pot. You are opening up the betting again and what I haven’t seen anyone else mention but you are allowing a limp backraise which I don’t find that unlikely as your hand looks exactly like what it is (marginal hand in position) and the stacksizes are such that they can definately limp backraise to define thier hand without overly committing too many chips and being forced to call a shove. I don’t think you will win this pre with a preflop raise very often, most likely getting a few callers if not a reraise pre. You are likely to make mess on a ton of boards we just happen to pick the 1 board where we flop the world and turn the nizzuts, you might win this raising pre and gettin them to check fold a few boards but not sure this is the most +ev way to play 45 suited in a limped pot 120bb deep when ur closing out the action. I might be wrong though

..Phil Hellmuth? why not just go by your real name instead of tht Judgedredd? silly man when will you learn?

lool I did say I might be wrong.

I think you’re definitely wrong. When you make this raise in position, YOU are becomin the aggressor in the pot. YOU are takin control of it. So most boards, people will check to you and let you fire and fold more often than them floating you OOP. Also, your idea that everyone will know this is a position raise is false, as a lot of people don’t understand position, hence why most people suck at poker. For those that do, well…learn how to play postflop and make spots tricky for them. If they’re compotent, they wont’ like playing OOP anyway and will fold pre more times than not. Also, if I had a 120 BBs and I iso’d here and someone limp back raised me, I’d snap flat and rape them postflop. You’re building a pot with a hand that’s going to be so well disguised if you ever hit a flop with it, that they’re likely to pay you off (assume you raise n get 3b and player A is holding AA, board flops 4510, said player may feel his hand is the best and get it all in for the rest of his 100 bbs) (the pot is already inflated, so he’ll feel the need to not fold as often because of what he’s committed/what’s in pot).

Limping these hands on the btn isn’t bad, but it’s the weakest, most passive line. This game rewards aggression, not the passive.

pros: disguised hand, taking control of pot, we got position (which we have anyways, not like if we limp we are moved to utg)
cons: if we showdown hand our table image is set on fire, our hand is pretty crap (5 high) even though everyone seems to love it we are building a pot with a hand tht is not good, most the time we flop a pair it will be bottom pair, if we got flushdraw we got a 5 high flush draw, we open up the betting and are vulnerable to reraise, u state “we rape them postflop” calling a 4 bet with 45 suited just cos we got position is not gonna be +ev, there is no money in the pot so winning it pre is not an awesome result, as result of burnt image we are not able to do this later when antes kick in and stacks are shallower hence blinds are worth more, if we raise pre are flatted and guy calls and he check folds the flop yeyyy we won a pretty crap sized pot still, If we are 4bet there are a ton of boards tht we catch a piece of and are in a guessing game as to whether or not he has ak

I know ive listed a ton more cons but I actually think its kinda close, I think it is one of them spots when sumtimes you should limp and sometimes you should raise to balance range, I just think it’s much better to do this when antes are in so winning it pre is worth something. If you showdown 45 suited here its not a terrible thing but you have to change the way you are playing your opponents now as they will adjust thier game to the new info they have about you. This isn’t really a bad thing but you gotta be able to play another style.

If i never raise this spot I guess im making a mistake but in no way is it an autoraise or far superior to a limp. yet again i might be wrong hahah kinda interested to hear other peoples thoughts too

You’re 100% wrong

It’s a raise. If you’re a fish who can’t adapt to how people perceive your table image, then that’s too bad for you.

Also, in 4b pots, the likelyness of them having a higher FD then you when you flop one are small, unless they’re holding hands like AKcc (which it happens, you can still rape post flop, if you know how to play post flop…which by your posts, it doesn’t seem likely).

How is calling a good drawing hand vs a 4b WITH STACKS DEEP ENOUGH TO ALLOW A FLAT, IN POSITION, not +EV?

Your A,B,C Logic of poker is limited imo, you need to open up your game.

Also, any of the other “good” players want to chime in on this? wwyd PRE?

you sayin i dunno how to play is funny, I had a few scores bigger than your largest playing in the toughest fields so nice for you to tell me whats what and imply im a fish. its not 100% a raise i spoke with guys who crush way way waaaaay harder than u and they say raise and flat are both totally ok and best to mix this spot up but if you wanna get personal then whatever. ok nvm thought this might b fun to talk on here but seems like internet ppl like to just start arguements wiv me and call me a moron. gl at tables

To Quote Pokerproplaya08: “You’re 100% wrong” shows how wrong you actually are!! I would strongly agree that if you are balancing you’re range then both a flat and a raise have very strong reasoning…. You also go on to say “Your A,B,C Logic of poker is limited imo, you need to open up your game.” – ditto maybe you need to stop being so narrow minded and open up to the fact that there is clearly an argument for flatting too. I would consider myself as a “good” player although I’m sure you can find an argument against that so feel free to disregard my point as you have so eloquently done for those who don’t agree with you!

In this scenario I have already said that in the moment and given that it’s a $5 MTT and I’m 120bbs deep I’d flat but on consideration there is good reasoning to raise as both have stated above… By raising you do also isolate the pot and lose those players who will also connect with the flop to you’re raising hand. Blinds aren’t going to call with 63, 24 etc which are hands that will usually connect quite well on boards that fair well for your hand. It was also stated that by raising pre if the pot then gets 4 bet your hand is well disguised etc and can “rape the flop” against a early position 4 bet…. true…. but my argument would be in this pot if the pot had been raised on the flop (which in my professional opinion it should have been) which meant the pot would have been built up enough to get a large majority of the chips in on the turn which also negates the point of raising pre as a form of pot building!

Either way I think taking the pot in posistion is key so both a limp and raise seem fairly acceptable!!